Discussion:
your thoughts on the muslim scarf controversy in france?
(too old to reply)
catch of the day
2004-02-18 07:26:18 UTC
Permalink
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html

i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.

if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?

i think the french government's reasons are really two-fold.
one is cultural. french are very proud of their culture and want
immigrants to adopt the french way.
the other reason is french politics is very egalitarian and the scarf
is seen as a symbol of subjugation of women, so the issue is more
political than religious. but, couldn't the yarmulka also be banned
purely on ideological grounds? if egalitarianism should be the norm
in the school, isn't a jewish guy flaunting his jewishness sending the
message 'i belong to the chosen people and you don't'?

i think the french government is also worried because the tide of
immigration keeps rising. if the current population of arabs could be
contained, it might not be much of an issue. but if in the next
several decades, arabs will make up a huge minority, then it's
important to make arabs adopt the french way because if they don't,
france will have a huge population of arabs living with anti-french,
anti-western values of male chauvanism, religious intolerance, etc.

for pragmatic reasons, i support the french government. also, i think
the scarf, by its size and visibility, is a far more brazen symbol of
religiosity than something as ornamental as a crucifix necklace.

but ideally, i think it's wrong for the state to ban such things.
after all, sometimes it's not really about religion but about culture.
i've worn a beezlebub t-shirt not because i believe in beezlebub but
because of my pride in my beezlebub heritage.

i think the solution is to skirt over religious issues and simply have
school dress codes where certain things are forbidden, period. for
example, if some frenchman of nordic ancestry wants to wear a horned
helmet to class in honor of odin and to celebrate his heritage, he
wouldn't be able to because the dress code says 'no horned
headpieces'. so why not 'no stupid-looking scarves' code?
Derek Janssen
2004-02-18 10:51:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by catch of the day
so why not 'no stupid-looking scarves' code?
(So why have s.c.j. and r.a.books already scraped him off?)

Derek Janssen (oh, tsk, tsk, Gaza--Headline-pimping AND
soc.french??...Not feeling as up to it as we used to be, are we?)
***@rcn.com
Tilly
2004-02-18 10:45:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
The new law doesn't allow anybody to wear religious symbols,including the
hijab, yarmulke,large crucifixes etc....The ban extends to all religions,it
doesn't just pick on Muslims.

Tilly.

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Norma
2004-02-18 14:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
The new law doesn't allow anybody to wear religious symbols,including the
hijab, yarmulke,large crucifixes etc....The ban extends to all
religions,it
Post by Tilly
doesn't just pick on Muslims.
I do believe it is getting as oppressive as most other PC things have been.
We are who we are afterall. Head scarves are often worn to the beach or out
in the rain--does wearing something really disturb others so much. It is
the other things that have been abused (behaviors) that are the cause for
concern. Clothing and jewelry are just that...something to wear. Norma
Post by Tilly
Tilly.
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Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 11:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
Yes, all those will be banned - except religious jewelry worn under
clothing.
IOW, all the Xian stuff is already okay.
Post by catch of the day
i think the french government's reasons are really two-fold.
one is cultural. french are very proud of their culture and want
immigrants to adopt the french way.
IOW, pseudo Catholic. How nice of them.
Post by catch of the day
the other reason is french politics is very egalitarian and the scarf
is seen as a symbol of subjugation of women, so the issue is more
political than religious. but, couldn't the yarmulka also be banned
purely on ideological grounds? if egalitarianism should be the norm
in the school, isn't a jewish guy flaunting his jewishness sending the
message 'i belong to the chosen people and you don't'?
It is if you want to look at it that way, which isn't the point of the
kippa.
Post by catch of the day
i think the french government is also worried because the tide of
immigration keeps rising.
They are actually just avoiding the problem rather than dealin with it.
The whole point is that they are just making the troublemakers want to go to
special schools - as well as others who, while not troublemakers, aren't
"French" enough for them.

Susan
Cyrano de B.
2004-02-18 12:13:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
Yes, all those will be banned - except religious jewelry worn under
clothing.
IOW, all the Xian stuff is already okay.
Post by catch of the day
i think the french government's reasons are really two-fold.
one is cultural. french are very proud of their culture and want
immigrants to adopt the french way.
IOW, pseudo Catholic. How nice of them.
Post by catch of the day
the other reason is french politics is very egalitarian and the scarf
is seen as a symbol of subjugation of women, so the issue is more
political than religious. but, couldn't the yarmulka also be banned
purely on ideological grounds? if egalitarianism should be the norm
in the school, isn't a jewish guy flaunting his jewishness sending the
message 'i belong to the chosen people and you don't'?
It is if you want to look at it that way, which isn't the point of the
kippa.
Post by catch of the day
i think the french government is also worried because the tide of
immigration keeps rising.
They are actually just avoiding the problem rather than dealin with it.
The whole point is that they are just making the troublemakers want to go to
special schools - as well as others who, while not troublemakers, aren't
"French" enough for them.
Susan
It's not about immigrants and french. Everybody involved is french, and most
were born in france. The point is to say, there is no official religion, and
all religions are equal in france. Hence, securalism. A lot of catholics,
protestants, muslims and jews are for it, so everybody should follow the
rules. Now some may go to special schools, well, let them. The schools will
have to follow national rules anyway.

And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems to make
a bid deal of it.
Tilly
2004-02-18 12:37:45 UTC
Permalink
Cyrano de B. wrote:
The schools will have to follow national
Post by Cyrano de B.
rules anyway.
No they won't . The new law doesn't apply to private religious schools.
Post by Cyrano de B.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems
to make a bid deal of it.
Muslims are allowed to wear the Hijab, Jews can wear Yamulkas and religious
jewellery is permitted in Britain.It is an entirely different situation.

Tilly

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Daniel Bernard
2004-02-18 12:57:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
The schools will have to follow national
Post by Cyrano de B.
rules anyway.
No they won't . The new law doesn't apply to private religious schools.
Post by Cyrano de B.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems
to make a bid deal of it.
Muslims are allowed to wear the Hijab, Jews can wear Yamulkas and religious
jewellery is permitted in Britain.It is an entirely different situation.
You will find that the majority of state schools in Britain are affiliated
to a particular religion so wearing religous symbols would naturally be
acceptable.
--
with regards,

DB
Cyrano de B.
2004-02-18 13:29:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
The schools will have to follow national
Post by Cyrano de B.
rules anyway.
No they won't . The new law doesn't apply to private religious schools.
I meant in what the school will teach. Even if they teach religion, they
won't be able to brainwash the students into hating the jews for example, of
becoming suicide bombers!
Post by Tilly
Post by Cyrano de B.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems
to make a bid deal of it.
Muslims are allowed to wear the Hijab, Jews can wear Yamulkas and religious
jewellery is permitted in Britain.It is an entirely different situation.
They're not uniforms then.
Post by Tilly
Tilly
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Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 13:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cyrano de B.
It's not about immigrants and french. Everybody involved is french, and most
were born in france.
That's not what I heard, but, okay.

The point is to say, there is no official religion, and
Post by Cyrano de B.
all religions are equal in france. Hence, securalism. A lot of catholics,
protestants, muslims and jews are for it, so everybody should follow the
rules. Now some may go to special schools, well, let them. The schools will
have to follow national rules anyway.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems to make
a bid deal of it.
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do is
drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.

Susan
Tilly
2004-02-18 13:18:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
It's not about immigrants and french. Everybody involved is french,
and most were born in france.
That's not what I heard, but, okay.
The point is to say, there is no official religion, and
Post by Cyrano de B.
all religions are equal in france. Hence, securalism. A lot of
catholics, protestants, muslims and jews are for it, so everybody
should follow the rules. Now some may go to special schools, well,
let them. The schools will have to follow national rules anyway.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems
to make a bid deal of it.
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do
is drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
Susan
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim pupils
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will be
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they are
told they have to.


Tilly

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Cyrano de B.
2004-02-18 13:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
It's not about immigrants and french. Everybody involved is french,
and most were born in france.
That's not what I heard, but, okay.
The point is to say, there is no official religion, and
Post by Cyrano de B.
all religions are equal in france. Hence, securalism. A lot of
catholics, protestants, muslims and jews are for it, so everybody
should follow the rules. Now some may go to special schools, well,
let them. The schools will have to follow national rules anyway.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems
to make a bid deal of it.
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do
is drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
Susan
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim pupils
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will be
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they are
told they have to.
Tilly
--
Exactly, that's what I was going to say. Sometimes it takes a law to impose
something that seems natural a decade or two later. The private religious
schools will ba few, as are the girls who want to wear headscarves although
you only see them on TV. The french girls of arab origin I see in the
streets here all wear what young girls wear.
Norma
2004-02-18 14:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
It's not about immigrants and french. Everybody involved is french,
and most were born in france.
That's not what I heard, but, okay.
The point is to say, there is no official religion, and
Post by Cyrano de B.
all religions are equal in france. Hence, securalism. A lot of
catholics, protestants, muslims and jews are for it, so everybody
should follow the rules. Now some may go to special schools, well,
let them. The schools will have to follow national rules anyway.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems
to make a bid deal of it.
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do
is drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
Susan
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim pupils
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will be
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they are
told they have to.
But, Tilly, few wear full hijab anymore. That includes veil and all of
that. A colorful scarf IF she wants to is OK. Norma
Post by Tilly
Tilly
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jonah thomas
2004-02-18 15:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do
is drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim pupils
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will be
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they are
told they have to.
What exactly is the problem with letting people wear what they want?
David O'Bedlam
2004-02-18 15:43:25 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by jonah thomas
Once the Muslim pupils experience the freedom of wearing normal
clothing, many of them will be reluctant to revert to the full
hijab. Many of them wear it because they are told they have to.
What exactly is the problem with letting people wear what they want?
Many of them wear it because they are told they have to.
What exactly is the problem with letting people wear what they want?
Because that's not *democratic*!

Seriously, there might be a point to school uniforms after all,
if only that all the subgroups could complain they were being
discriminated against equally.
--
"I always wanted to hang out in Mars bars."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
(C) 2004 by `TheDavid^TM' | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221
jonah thomas
2004-02-18 15:47:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by jonah thomas
What exactly is the problem with letting people wear what they want?
Many of them wear it because they are told they have to.
You know, the business environment in this country would be better for
everybody if we were forbidden to wear neckties.

I don't know anyone who does it because it feels good.
David O'Bedlam
2004-02-18 16:47:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by jonah thomas
You know, the business environment in this country would be better for
everybody if we were forbidden to wear neckties.
I don't know anyone who does it because it feels good.
Exactly! You're catching on!


D.
--
"I always wanted to hang out in Mars bars."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
(C) 2004 by `TheDavid^TM' | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221
Patricia Heil
2004-02-18 16:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Ask the French. BTW they also think it's wrong to adopt
into the French language, words from other languages.
They have a cabinet minister responsible for preventing
this dastardly practice.
Post by jonah thomas
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do
is drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim pupils
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will be
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they are
told they have to.
What exactly is the problem with letting people wear what they want?
David O'Bedlam
2004-02-18 16:37:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 18 Feb 2004, Susan Cohen wrote:
[...]
Post by Susan Cohen
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do is
drive the problem out of French schools. It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
So the French non-Muslims should kill all the Muslims in France then. Or
at least make them move to Algeria or someplace. After all, we know how
intractable religious behaviors can be. Right, Susan?
--
"I always wanted to hang out in Mars bars."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
(C) 2004 by `TheDavid^TM' | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221
Richard
2004-02-18 15:17:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
Yes, all those will be banned - except religious jewelry worn under
clothing.
IOW, all the Xian stuff is already okay.
Post by catch of the day
i think the french government's reasons are really two-fold.
one is cultural. french are very proud of their culture and want
immigrants to adopt the french way.
IOW, pseudo Catholic. How nice of them.
Post by catch of the day
the other reason is french politics is very egalitarian and the scarf
is seen as a symbol of subjugation of women, so the issue is more
political than religious. but, couldn't the yarmulka also be banned
purely on ideological grounds? if egalitarianism should be the norm
in the school, isn't a jewish guy flaunting his jewishness sending the
message 'i belong to the chosen people and you don't'?
It is if you want to look at it that way, which isn't the point of the
kippa.
Post by catch of the day
i think the french government is also worried because the tide of
immigration keeps rising.
They are actually just avoiding the problem rather than dealin with it.
The whole point is that they are just making the troublemakers want to go to
special schools - as well as others who, while not troublemakers, aren't
"French" enough for them.
Susan
I like Vlad Tepes way of handling the wearing of religious garb when asked
not to; He had some Moslems visit him. They were expected to remove
their turbins as a sign of respect in Vlad's house. They wouldn't.
So Vlad had them nailed to their heads. They should do that with the retards
who inappropriately wearing ball caps no matter where they are.
-Rich
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